I was a long-time OpenBSD user since the OpenBSD 2.7 days, and cut my teeth on Unix development there. I was attracted by its focus on security and conscientious coding practices. I was happy through the early 2.x days, but the more I got involved in developing for OpenBSD the more I was dissuaded from doing so.
Part of the issue was this focus on security. After I began to use OpenBSD at home and at work in earnest, I realized that it was limited in hardware support compared to other operating systems. I purchased a new workstation and portable within a year of each other, and both times came to some unhappy realizations about OpenBSD support.
I began to seriously look at Linux and FreeBSD at this point, knowing hardware support was much more robust. (I had also looked at NetBSD, but even though it booted on nearly everything, driver support was anemic.) I started to dual-boot FreeBSD on my workstation, and spent more and more time there. But it wasn't only hardware support that pushed me away from OpenBSD.
The FreeBSD development model is, to say the least, more sensible. Like I said, the more I got involved with OpenBSD development the more I was turned away, and that was mostly due to the project leader's attitude. During the run-up to OpenBSD 4.2, Theo de Raadt had been in a couple highly-publicized arguments with Linux developers, rubbing a ton of people the wrong way.
What many don't understand is that this was not an isolated incident. Try being an OpenBSD developer! These kind of scathing verbal assaults happened all of the time on the mailing lists. I was—and still am, actually—unsure whether Theo doesn't give a shit due to some philosophical stance, or can't help it due to something like Asperger syndrome. In either case, he typically drags anyone he disagrees with over the coals, all while telling them to stop taking it personally.
I wish Theo had taken some of his own advice. I believe he has hurt the OpenBSD platform more than he has helped it, and I also firmly believe that hardware support in OpenBSD sucks not because of code auditing practices or security focus, but because Theo has either scared or purposefully chased away developers.
Long-time OpenBSD developers might migrate to FreeBSD or Darwin; newbies might try for Linux instead. Those who taste the de Raadt wrath, however, always run in the end. A friend of mine once incurred his ire by asking the wrong question at the wrong time, and Theo de Raadt hacked his router and remotely remapped his keyboard!
This is abuse, plain and simple, and Theo's relationship with his developers is abusive. I feel bad for anyone who has to engage him in real life, and fear something Reiser-like happening in the future. This controlling, manipulative attitude coupled with periodic violent outbursts indicates a deep-seated mental health issue that has gone unchecked for far too long. If you are an OpenBSD developer, watch your back!
After all this mess, I switched to FreeBSD 7.2 and never looked back. I upgraded to FreeBSD 7.3 and started using FreeBSD 8 as soon as it was in pre-release, and I am eagerly working on FreeBSD 8.1. I feel spoiled now, too, because of the throng of developers devoted to professionally working the FreeBSD platform into something spectacular instead of naggling over trivial matters or admonishing one another.
The thriving FreeBSD ecosystem contrasts sharply with the Jonestown-like atmosphere of OpenBSD. There is also the fact that no one person looms so largely over any other; ego is checked at the door in FreeBSD since the goal is to make a great operating system, not lord over others like David Koresh and a harem of 14-year-old girls.
Feel free to disagree with me or point out counter-examples; I would love to read them now that I have left OpenBSD. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for the little secure operating system even though it leaves me with chills. I sometimes fondly load www.openbsd.org and read the latest release notes and smile wistfully.
It's okay to smile, now that I'm free from OpenBSD.
"Theo de Raadt hacked his router and remotely remapped his keyboard!" -> LOL LOL LOLReplyDelete
"I feel bad for anyone who has to engage him in real life, and fear something Reiser-like happening in the future." - > MEGA-LOL
Your ideas are intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.ReplyDelete
Nice text. But i do not believe in things like Theo hacking ;-) But it;s true emotionally he is premature and without distance to it;s work and himself :)ReplyDelete
I smile everyday even while using OBSD, get a life and stop trolling.ReplyDelete
This is not amusing, "Trollaxor."ReplyDelete
This is amusing! :-)ReplyDelete
I know some rather polite and nice people with Aspergers.ReplyDelete
They suffer from occasional foot-in-mouth, not from abusiveness.
I don't care whether you use OpenBSD or not. But you're making some very callous statements about private relationships you know nothing about. This article is pure sensationalism and you should be ashamed of yourself.ReplyDelete
Alguns estudiosos afirmam que grandes personalidades da História possuíam fortes traços da síndrome de Asperger, como os físicos Isaac Newton e Albert Einstein, o compositor Mozart, os filósofos Sócrates e Wittgenstein, o naturalista Charles Darwin, o pintor renascentista Michelangelo, os cineastas Stanley Kubrick e Andy Warhol e o enxadrista Bobby Fischer."
Even if you can't understand any Portuguese, for sure you can recognise the names. Judging by the personalities above that had Asperger syndrome, by no way it is something pejorative, what if Isaac Newton hadn't had Asperger Syndrome and his geniality had never come to shine as a side effect? For how many centuries human science would stay in the dark?
I'm not a developer, and I'm not saying that Teo de Raadt is or isn't a genious like Newton, but for sure he and all the OpenBSD team had done some things that made our world better or at least more secure... What have you done to the world besides trying to denigrate people image and efforts?
And of course, no one is asking you to use OpenBSD, go to whatever OS you like and be happy ;)
" Theo de Raadt hacked his router "ReplyDelete
Ná era da informática, o castigo vem via internet
* In the information age, the punishment comes via internet
OpenBSD is about 2 years behind FreeBSD in chipset support, and about 4 years behind RHEL and other Linux distros. OpenSolaris is improving too, constantly - and so is FreeBSD. OpenBSD is a dead issue, maybe someday they will catch up to the 21st century!ReplyDelete
Theo seems like a typical computer geek, i.e. not very sociable, tolerant.
While it may be not acceptable to some people, his attitude I think stimulates you to think, and to think things through before taking action, cause if you screw up, there will be no mercy :D
FreeBSD -- I tried installing it two times in the past few years and both times it's kernel would panic at boot (I was trying to install releases both times).. So..
OpenBSD lacks good support only for hardware for which there's no documentation. Okay, it lags a little behind other OSes in graphics support, but not that much nowadays actually. I didn't install OpenBSD to play latest commercial games you know.. :D
Linux is bloated and too inconsistent. It's not even an operating system. And it's free software only on words, in reality -- software restricted by the demand to disclose source code, drivers written under NDA and binary blobs.
Nothing here seems surprising... I stopped using OpenBSD for desktop and servers a little while ago, although I still keep it around for firewalls - mostly since PF is just so darned nice.ReplyDelete
Anyway, the mailing list I can agree and disagree on... it can be abrasive on technical questions you have, but I think that does stop a lot of idiocy. I knew I have triple checked things many times before posting questions (and half the time I figured it out myself in the process).
That being said I do have a theo filter that lets me poke into my openbsd list folder and read theo's comments...
Yeah, he seems to have some anger issues, but he does keep the project going and alive. You can't run an empire by vote, but of course once the leader dies - the empire slowly falls apart.
So use it while you can, when theo goes away, the O/S will probably start dying off.
OpenBSD does exactly what its documentation says it is doing. If you do try to use for something that is not described as "working" in the documentation you're not really entitled to complains, right?ReplyDelete
On the other hand, no other community offered me support as quick and accurate as the OpenBSD community. And yes, I did get my RTFM and slap on the wrist for not doing my homework before asking for help.
As for Theo's attitude, he didn't ask you to use OpenBSD, he didn't charge you for using his work and he cares for his project. Also, don't forget: nobody said that the OpenBSD is a democracy - so don't expect it to be and don't complain it isn't.
You are praising, and have made the switch to FreeBSD. Yet your other post (http://www.trollaxor.com/2010/06/why-i-almost-gave-openbsd-100000-didnt.html) states you are donating money to NetBSD?ReplyDelete
I wanted to install OpenBSD 3.x. It had problems with the size of my hdd. I went to IRC to ask. One person was very friendly and tried to help. Some OP, however, wanted me to do things in another way I intended (installing the OS on another computer and then plug the hdd into the one I wanted to set up. For technical reasons I could not follow his advice. When I did not obey the master OP he quickly kickbanned me from the channel, while the friendly person just started solving my problem.ReplyDelete
Many people have come over this attitude. And let's be a little honest to ourselfes: People who are fanatically into security have a small penis.
Let's not forget the time Theo crapflooded the FreeBSD mailing lists like a petulant child because someone flamed him:ReplyDelete
lol good linkReplyDelete
Well the University of Berkly California made two different things at the same time to cause discord, chaos, mischief, and fill the news media and other sources of information with lies stamped with the official seal that they are true.ReplyDelete
Thing #1 was LSD.
Thing #2 was OpenBSD.
People like you and me tend to think it was not a coincident, and to prove it even more the BSD series used to have a small devil as a mascot and then the public claimed they were Luciferians because of it so they change the OpenBSD Mascot to a Blowfish named Puffer or something to represent the fact that OpenBSD and other BSD Unix systems like a puffer fish or blow fish are bloated and buggy and not as good as they used to be. Not only that but OpenBSD blows as well. So your diary is spot on and it is a fair cop to the BSD series of Unix.
But I wonder if you can help me figure out if the OpenBSD developers really do have plans to merge LSD and OpenBSD into a new operating system named OpenLSD which not only is worse than OpenBSD but it is so bad and poorly written that people who use it end up like they took a few hits of LSD anyway.
Grow some skin.ReplyDelete
I've had my fair share of run-ins with Theo over the years, but they never caused me to consider switching OSs. I'm not going to stoping using something that works great just because the project leader is eccentric.
Use the right tools for the job, and don't take everything personally. If OpenBSD doesn't work best for what you need it to do, use something else. No one cares.
Hey Anonymous you don't mess with me or Trollaxor you cockerknocker!ReplyDelete
If you want to see real blogspam, look in the mirror, yes that is you cockknocker!
@Trollaxor I don't know which one is worse, OS/2 or OpenBSD? Why don't you do a side-by-side comparison between the two of them for your next troll, er ah, fiction, er ah articlestoryblog or whatever.
I think the quality of your article is very poor. You fail to make any concrete arguments, just some vague references of some sort of personal blight? Its not even very clear. If you really want the hardware support you seek, you should be buying at least two of those machines, and donating one of them. I'm not being an asshole, either, I donated a fully-equipped zaurus to drahn@...ReplyDelete
but I would like to throw my own recent experience in the mix, far more watered down and less emotional than yours, but maybe it hits the same notes of the same tune.
I code C now and then. I like unix, and I'd like to contribute during my free cycles. On a slow day at work, I had just installed openbsd and was upset that wsmoused is still over-accellerated on the console, making wsmoused useless to me, despite my mouse being able to switch multiple DPI's. I like to be able to use the mouse without X11 now and then.
So I wrote a deceleration patch. I joined #openbsd on freenode and asked for comments/tests before posting it to @tech. I got flogged. Hard. I don't even really understand why!
One user responded something of the effect that my patch could contain something like a rootkit.... well its a source patch, review it yourself! I was banned, maybe on accident because somebody was looking for the cause of a 3-page flame-war break-out and I was at the beginning. I don't know really, banning itself is childish for any reason other than spam or flooding. I'm an adult, just tell me I'm not welcome and I'll leave.
But it did make me think, I just put an hours effort into contributing something to the openbsd community that might improve their user experience, and all I got in return was an hours-worth of spitting hate. What the hell did I do wrong?
I've concluded simply that I contributed to the wrong community. I'm still seeking a new project to put my spare cycles into, I like writing patches, I find it fun, and I like porting linux software to work on bsd. It helps me find reasons to read source of software I like, and bring software to platforms that might help people or expand the userbase (I had some work on porting edbrowse, a blind user's browser, for example).
So I'm looking at the other bsd's and possibly something more esoteric, like porting linux-centric software to amiga os 4. That might seem like a ridiculous waste, but I'd like to be able to paste a url to a .patch to an irc channel and instead see encouraging or constructive feedback. developer-starved communities provide that.
(I know freenode doesn't reflect the full community, but I really went there purely for an alternative to the misc@ list, which I shouldn't need to explain to most of you. Also, I did end up posting this patch to tech@ later that day. I received no reply. That's ok anyway, its the response I did get that sucked -- Plenty of useful patches exist only as tech@ posts, my favorite being the vga wscons patch that lets you go back and pgup in terminals you ctrl+alt+FN'd away from, for example)
There is no such thing as a right os. All os are wrong in one or another aspect. Depends on what you wanna do... Do not believe anybody who states this is right or this is wrong. Think yourselve and if you can't learn it!ReplyDelete
This is gossip. I give a shit on gossip. Yeah, that's cool: Think yourself and if you can't learn it! LOLOLOLOLOLOLReplyDelete
Looking forward for "Why I Lleft FreeBSD.", in the future. :)ReplyDelete
Get Mac OSX ... Nuff SaidReplyDelete
In simple words: Regardless of his personality, Theo maintains the only truly secure(and audited) operating system there is, for me that is enough reason to let him be as he is.ReplyDelete
theo is a hero. you must fight those linuxtards with fire!ReplyDelete
Q: How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a lightbulb?ReplyDelete
So Theo told you that your code was shit,ReplyDelete
and you starting crying and wrote this
post to get him back.
Wow, all the way back to 3.1 gee that is
a whole couple of years.
My girlfriend wants to know if you need to
borrow a tampon.
OpenBSD is secure, and should be given credit as such, although some have argued that the absence of mandatory access controls (Orange Book "B") or formal proofs of correctness (Orange Book "A") mean that it's not the most secure and is getting overtaken in the open-source world in security.ReplyDelete
There have also been discussions regarding denial-of-service exploits, the random number generator, etc, that were not "remote access" attacks but definitely worried people. These were not dealt with as quickly or cleanly as they could have been, with a lot of flammage over the issue. Not good.
I would not personally want to get into a confrontation with Theo - I regard him as a superb programmer, very likely somewhere in the Aspie/HFA part of the spectrum, perfect for the niche he is working with, but a little over-focused for my tastes.
It is precisely because of this focus that I'd not hesitate recommend OpenBSD for a secure OS on any appliance, gateway or large embedded device for which drivers existed. It's likely why DARPA were so interested in it a few years back as well.
At one point I'd have extended that to any server not needing SMP or multicore, and I'd still probably argue it for some server systems as you really want security to be on more than just the edges. However, I'm increasingly of the belief that MAC is the way to go for server systems, especially as the DAC in Unix is so limited, and fundamentally unicore OS' just don't cut the mustard on horsepower any more.
Further, Theo has made it pretty obvious that he is not a fan of distributed kernels, distributed systems, clusters, gridded computing or any of the other concepts that comprise either OS research at the one end or academic/scientific computing at the other. That's a big sector to lose, especially as that is your next generation of developers.
OpenBSD will be around for a long time yet - I would say its life-expectancy is in decades - and it is certainly fundamental to many important systems. But on the evolutionary scale, I see it sharing the fate of MACH.
Some folks have balls. And they don't care about slapping your face with them. Yeah, that's being Open, baby. Of course it would not be so much fun without all these suckers on their knees, right ?ReplyDelete
all those theo fans... get your head out of his ass... his code is maybe "more secure", but there are tons of coding errors in OpenBSD too. His "security" claims are worth nothing in my book. I've seen the code, i've seen the sollutions and the silent security bugfixing etc...ReplyDelete
Wow, whether this is tongue in cheek or not, most of you are plain morons or assholes. Or morons with assholes (or assholes with morons in your brains...)ReplyDelete
If it's true, then thank you for supporting FreeBSD - it's bigger, badder, and growing faster, so the more the merrier.
If it's humour, then bravo, well written, and let's get to "How I fell in love with Windows," eh? Or a roast of the iPad because you can't do your full production work on it while you're on the train en route to work :-)
I'm seeing a pattern of moronic interpretation here - either this is a real post, and people should agree or stfu (as in, if you respond with anger, then you're a hypocritical moron), or it's a joke, and your muscle relaxant didn't reach your anal sphincters yet, and you need a stronger dose to chill the frak out.
We know that BSD is coming up on Linux either way, and any OSS is better than closed binary, so pick your poison and deal with the consequences! Even if it means switching distros (omg that's like TREASONOUS!!!)
Just get BSD, rtfm, and then stfu.
SO SAY WE ALL.
George Stark, Berkeley did not invent LSD or OpenBSD. It developed BSD. The effects of LSD are different than you describe.ReplyDelete
Theo is a pain in the ass. It's only his technical talent which has got him this far. Perhaps anger, and the desire to prove he's right, powers his work. I certainly know that I would NEVER hire him to work for my company, no matter how brilliant he is. I once had a brilliant new hire, fresh out of CMU, who acted similarly to Theo, sewing discord throughout my company in less than a week. I tried to discuss the problem with him and he blew up in my face, making threats of physical violence. It's the only time I've had to fire anyone and have to call the police to have the escorted off them premises. Due to this trauma, our project which had been a week ahead of schedule before this person's arrival slipped a week, i.e. the company made no progress when he was here.
Theo is welcome to toil as he sinks into obscurity. But I won't tie my fortune to his.
>Long-time OpenBSD developers might migrate to FreeBSD or >Darwin; newbies might try for Linux instead.ReplyDelete
Maybe I don't get what you meant here, but it seems it's a common practice newbies from GSOC hack serious FreeBSD parts while they would be allowed to do some cleanups only when hacking on Linux. You can easily check this at freebsd.org.
FreeBSD is ok on a commodity server, but the team's docs and procedures for getting a functional desktop are a little disheveled and not properly sequenced. OpenBSD's recent releases, to my surprise, have needed no X11 configuration to get rolling from a "startx", those install tarballs are pretty well thought out. I'm right now whipping up (with the 4.8 pre-release -current) a Tecra 8000 laptop (pentium ii with 256MB ram and 6 gb disk) on which FreeBSD was a never-ending hassle of device config (which ultimately failed due to lack of sound support), but OpenBSD is rockin' away on it, even the pcmcia DWL-640 wireless card was detected. Who'd have thought the stereotypical "appliance os" would now be a serious laptop OS due to the OpenBSD's intensely meticulous labors? And the clean minimalist config sure beats FreeBSDs splatterfest of multiple config locations. Nice troll, axor-meister, but I'm not buying it.ReplyDelete
Honestly? I've got what most people call an arrogant and hostile attitude, some of the time. And I certainly have poor social skills. I have definite anger issues. So I know about all that.ReplyDelete
And I agree with Theo on most of his technical and free-software-political decisions.
And DeRaadt managed to hurl abuse at *me*, to the point where I don't want to talk to him and am not even going to post a name with this comment. I *would* worry about a Reiser-like scenario, and I really hope that Mr. DeRaadt gets psychiatric help.
In the end, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Linux and their ilk are but tools - tools for certain purposes. Not all tools are for all purposes.ReplyDelete
OpenBSD may not make a great Desktop, but it makes a fscking awesome router thanks to PF and comes with easy to use redundancy thanks to CARP. It also makes a great server thanks to the fact that nothing is turned on by default that doesn't need to (when I first installed Redhat it was starting up Apache, NFS, ntpd... a whole host of crap I didn't even need - it was for a desktop!) and entices you to pick the tools you need and configure them to your needs rather than a OSFA configuration that might not suit your needs and could be misconfigured (often with disastrous results!).
Similarly, Linux makes a great desktop and quite a nice server, but it lacks some features that would otherwise make it an awesome router (such as redundancy).
All of this in mind, there's one thing a lot of people seem to forget - OpenSSL. That was born from the OpenBSD project and is now found in a number of free and proprietary systems. The license allows them to use it freely, only asking for code enhancements to come back (which happens more often than not) and to not use the project as a means of promoting the product that the code is used in.
Theo is guilty only of sticking to his morals - by refusing binary-only drivers, he maintains the integrity of the entire OpenBSD system at the cost of hardware compatibility. With 6 months, the average hacker can usually grok the basic functionality, enough to get the thing going, then do some further troubleshooting to open further functionality. That's how the vast majority of RAID came about. Of course, it's an uphill battle and there are obstacles at each turn, but they do it because it's fun and they give something back to the world.
As for me, OpenBSD has worked on just about everything I've thrown at it (including a Wyse terminal - though it sometimes hangs on boot, and I'm inclined to blame the Wyse for that since it boots on other attempts) and when things didn't work, it usually wasn't a big deal.
In conclusion, get over yourself and realise that the world doesn't end at your feet. Yes, Theo is a hard person, but the hardline stance he takes has made OpenBSD the secure operating system that it is today. If you don't agree with his ideals, go somewhere else or put up and shut up.
I would attribute the security and stability of OpenBSD to its autocratic leadership. The source code is totally open, if you don't like the style of leadership, you're free to fork the code. You're free to write device drivers. I was a long time user of FreeBSD and switched to Open precisely for its security and stability.ReplyDelete
@thirdwheel I assume you mean OpenSSH. OpenSSH is developed by the OpenBSD team, not OpenSSL.ReplyDelete
Why I joined OpenBSD.ReplyDelete
Because I hate people. I hate mediocrity.
Because killing babies is as fun as coding C code.
Because flaming to death weak people just proves they don't have the balls to be under OpenBSD.
Flaming is here to push out weak worms like you. We don't want you on OpenBSD. Please die.
OpenBSD... is *BEST* used on obsolete hardware...ReplyDelete
oh yeah.. "security".. of course.. by using just the "bare" os and fuck yourself trying to just install some 'luxuries' like drivers for a proper laptop etc.. my C64 is 'secure' too.. (useless too)
I've been on the OpenBSD IRC chat forum. The attitudes of some make a USMC D.I. look like a puppy. I'd hate to run into Theo, but it's his arrogant, egotistical attitude that makes OpenBSD the os it is known for - superior to ANY Linux distro in terms of security.ReplyDelete
Well....well....well.... lets watch the facts:ReplyDelete
OpenBSD: openssh, packet filter, openssl
Probably Theo de Raadt is not very tender guy, however he did brilliant work for some projects... which are imported everywhere (and used).
So i am Linux fan, however i am and OpenBSD fan.
If you are the only coordinator to so serious project as OBSD,
shall you be only nice with all developers?
Well it depends of the view point, however lets don't forget that the most secure OS is insecure by default if it has a bad admin ....
Much better is to say - Thank you - for what we are using free from OpenBSD and let others decide what to use for desktop.
Linux also is wonderful alternative for much many things...
however, nor Linux Torvalds, not Theo de Raadt are magics - they are human only :)
I've seen TDR at EuroBSDCon in Karlsruhe. He used the F-word a lot in front of an international crowd. I felt very embarrassed for him.ReplyDelete
I remember Theo and RMS claiming governments were spying on people and closed software companies were helping them do it. What a crazy conspiracy theory! We all know the NSA contributed to the Linux kernel out of the goodness of their hearts.ReplyDelete
My OpenBSD server uptime 366 days and few hours. And I have 3 of these puppies running. The only time 1 of them crashed or died was because of faulty hdd. Never been hacked, never had issues and i run many many services on my net.ReplyDelete
I know Theo personally and I like him...
Whoever made this page and the twitter account should let everyone know their real name, phone number, and address
Theo makes his information public, available and anyone can call or visit him anytime
If the person that made this page and the twitter account does that, I wonder if he will have people on his door asking for a free openbsd cd or possibly there for other reasons?
I for one would;
1. take down your entire net, forever
2. take over you freebsd machines in a few minutes
3. make your phone line never work again
4. cut off all power to your house and place of busines
5. make you afraid to drive in any card newer than 1990
6. make you afraid to leave your house without your possy (that is if you have friends)
now do the right thing, take down this page, take down the twitter account and file a civil claim against Theo and OpenBSD if you have legal grievances
Otherwise once the community finds out who you are, you will only then figure out how many people like Theo and how many people like you (my how many lights turn on, on your routers, switches, servers, computers, laptops, tvs, telephones, cell phones, cars)
"now do the right thing, take down this page, take down the twitter account and file a civil claim against Theo and OpenBSD if you have legal grievances"Delete
lol. its america - shut the fuck up, nobody cares. if YOU disagree, just don't care. simple. he left for freebsd, no issue to you, or your possy. you're as big as a whiny bitch as the OP
If you spent the time you took writing this and instead started writing drivers, he wouldn't have had to post this now would he :P
anyway, anybody who has a specific use for openbsd appreciates its power, i for one love it.
I'm a long-time OpenBSD user; I like the elegant minimalism and I can trust that pretty much everything is going to work as expected. However, the community is toxic. The history of it is laid out in the openbsd-misc and openbsd-tech mailing lists:ReplyDelete
I keep my OpenBSD machines synced with the CVS servers. Other than that, I stay as far away from the developer community as possible. It's a cesspool of personality disorder and diseased human interaction.
The double obsession of hacking and being purely "free" is in itself a mental disorder. Theo de Raadt is consistent with that. What becomes funny is when he talks about safety. I would not rely on people that I do not feel any empathy. Without empathy, without any concept of solidarity, openness is just bullshit.ReplyDelete
After considering OpenBSD I decided to use Linux Debian.