Jul 9, 2009

Some Questions & Comments About Firefox 3.5

I have to say that Firefox is getting a lot worse lately. The user experience is in serious need of improvement and development is the pits. I installed the latest "big deal" Firefox update on June 30th. (For some reason they skipped a full four secondary updates, but whatever.) Upon restarting, which took several minutes, I began using Firefox 3.5.

At first, Firefox seemed strangely familiar. I thought they had changed very little unnecessarily until I visited the Acid3 test. Lo and behold, I was still using Firefox 3.0.0.11. What the fuck? I manually invoked Check for Updates… and repeated my first attempt only to find, upon restarting, the same thing.

Finally in desperation I downloaded the installer manually from Mozilla. The install ran surprisingly quickly and, after a few minutes, I was launched with the new version. I had to check, though, because again I thought it looked like very little had changed.

In fact, did Mozilla bother changing anything beside the JavaScript? The new SpiderMonkey is great and all, but they could have at least made it look like they were working on something else. When the most noticeable improvement is the "Know Your Rights" button (which everyone ignores) one really starts to wonder what the fuss was all about.

Well, after the three tries it took to upgrade, I found my profile wouldn't migrate. This was a mess, but I was able to eventually retrieve my bookmarks from a long, arcane file path in a hidden directory. But then upon visiting my bookmarked sites I found that almost none of my add-ons are compatible with it. Therefore my browser is almost entirely functionless.

The bookmark tool itself could use a polishing. It's a mess and has been since version 1.0. If a browser is meant to render and organize content, Firefox surely falls down in this area. Why does it take me several minutes to slosh through the GUI just to make a new folder and alphabetize some bookmarks in it? Not to mention the damned Bookmarks toolbar, which takes up too much damn space and can't be turned off.

And speaking of the GUI, it's slow as Hell! Get rid of the proprietary XUL and just hardcode the damned interface already!

I also have to mention memory use. On my system, Firefox was swallowing an incredible 400 MiB with only a simple HTML 5 page open. 400 MiB?! I blame this on the Firefox team's use of C++, where memory management is about as easy as herding cats. Likewise Firefox is a slow, bloated nightmare. (For a contrast, there's Safari, which is written in Objective C and is very small and efficient.)

Most of the time I have heavy JavaScript sites open. I shudder to think how much Firefox eats then, and I'll be sure to check in the future. No wonder my system tends to slow down when I've left Firefox open for days on end with dynamically updating pages and RSS feeds. Clearly, Firefox leaks memory like a cracked sieve in a waterfall.

With Firefox smelling more and more like crapware, I started to dig a little, first on Wikipedia and then on the Mozilla Development Forums. It turns out that my observations are part of a larger pattern of Firefox quality issues and development customs. The Mozilla developers are a bunch of arrogant, abusive shitheads.

For starters, they're still running all tabs in the same process. This is something IE7 and Safari 3 have had right for years. So if a plugin crashes or a page takes forever to finish rendering, everything's stuck. You can't even switch tabs to another page! And Firefox 3.5 is a "milestone" release? Firefox 3.6 and 4 are milestones too, and process-per-tab isn't scheduled for either.

Developer interaction with Firefox users is stilted too. Sometimes Bugzilla reports are dismissed out of hand, only to be reopened when something goes terribly wrong later. I also saw instances of reported security flaws sitting years before being patched. In one case, someone released an exploit to point out the deep holes in Firefox before anyone did anything.

One time, a user with some programming experience suggested a bugfix to the wishlist. One programmer, whom I will not publicly name, suggested the user submit patches "once his balls dropped," if he were even male. If this were a real company and not a bunch of arrogant hacker hippies, user antagonism and sexism would never be acceptable. When I read this particular incident I uninstalled Firefox for good.

If anyone else has complaints about Firefox, post them here. For a browser that's taken nearly a third of the market, it's doing so with an incredibly broken development model and backend. Just imagine if the Firefox team actually treated its users right or prioritized projects properly. Maybe then the web would move beyond the mess of incompatibile standards and site hacks it is today.

Until then, Firefox is just another out-of-control Open Source project that needs a good stiff slap in the face.

84 comments:

  1. Wow, you are not only stupid, but you actually try to make everyone believe the opposite by way of /rationalizing/ and, boy, do you rationalize!

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  2. You little coward, you didn't dare post my comment! Too harsh for your harshness?

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  3. Neither Safari 3 nor IE7 run tabs in separate process

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  4. Get a job, slacker.

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  5. "Not to mention the damned Bookmarks toolbar, which takes up too much damn space and can't be turned off." Um, yeah, it can be turned off... "View-->Toolbars-->Bookmarks Toolbar".

    If you can't be bothered to verify basic stuff about the UI, how can we trust the rest of this review? Yes, some stuff about Firefox sucks. No, not all of the stuff that you "reviewed" does.

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  6. Im not quite sure is the seperate process thing is good for all users. It may cause it to eat even more RAM. Its good for keeping a crash from taking out all windows, but i think it should be an optional feature.

    Firefox standards support is OK. I would like to see more support for some advanced things like x3d. I would also like to see more IE stuff supported just to stay compatable with that.

    Memory usage has improved but is still bad. I think they should add an option to control precisely how much memory it should use for cache.

    Speed of the UI seems fast enough to me. I have not noticed a problem here. the XUL is a good idea and allows more customizability.

    The developers should be friendly and should not shout at users who are giving feedback.

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  7. I agree with most of the article, except for the C++ comment. C++ can have good memory management if used properly. The problem with Firefox is the same as with other older software--the core is still very much old C. This means that you can't rely on scope and smart pointers to manage your variable lifetime, you still have to remember to free the memory.

    If you wrote Firefox (or Chrome for that matter) in a bytecode language like Java or C#, the performance would be horrible.

    Great observations about the snobby developer culture and crap that comes with it.

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  8. This review is awful. You're simply inept in using a browser. I'm surprised you know how to use the internet.

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  9. Awful review

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  10. The latest major update from Firefox, did suck and the update process was harsh. Adobe Reader seems to dislike Firefox and this most recent version is a great example, I had to run a manual update of Adobe Reader to get it functioning as well. Then after dropping the extensions that were failing it is good again. I still think it's a good product but there are some key elements that need work and working well with Reader is pretty important just in case you have to pull something important. Oh well.

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  11. Sounds like you have an error somewhere between your chair and your keyboard.

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  12. Lies. Link to the EXACT bugs where this is MENTIONED! The dropping balls comment & the exploit bug.

    Otherwise your stories are nothing but trolling. What exact exploit bug was not patched for years? Link! I bet you won't even post them.

    Post them!

    And you're an idiot, Safari 3 & IE7 DON'T run tabs in a separate process. You really are a troll, glad you name reflects half of what you are.

    And there is no "3.0.0.11" mentioned in that link you posted. God, you're full of convenient holes.

    Anyway I have gripes with the browser & vent my anger in other forums, but to just talk out of your ass in this manner... is embarrassing.

    And you don't even know how to disable add-on compatibility checks???? Even a novice user can google to find out how to do that. I won't tell you how either until you post those bug links.

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  13. Source code is there, so fix it if you feel there are problems. Or you could just continue to bitch about how a free, open source offering is messing up your web experience enough to cause you to put this much effort into trolling.

    Free... Open.. in other words, you didn't lose anything by using it except a wee bit of your time, which you seem to have an over-abundance of anyhow.

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  14. Using 92 meg on my XP SP3 machine. What are you running it on?

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  15. Guy, you don't understand how RAM works. Look in Task Manager. If physical memory is less than 100%, your browser is working just fine. The fewer resources that have to be paged, the faster the browser operates. What's the point of having more RAM if you don't use it?

    I have seventeen tabs open, including your "FUCK FIREFOX" page. 4gb total, 155mb used by Firefox 3.5. It's quite snappy.

    C++ is not an inherently bad/slow language. Check your plugins, they may be slowing FF down. A person such as yourself shouldn't even imply you know anything about computers.

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  16. @trollaxor: did you have to write those hilarious comments yourself, or are they real?

    Which part of 'troll' is so hard to understand, everyone?

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  17. This was a great article, and had many valid criticisms. Firefox _is_ getting progressively worse with each new release. The comments (even if they were written by Trollaxor) were also insightful. THX.

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  18. Hello, Troll. This is what I posted in response to your post on slashdot:

    Not only a troll, but an especially LAME troll.

    I loaded the page in firefox, just to be told that FF required 400MB of memory in order to render the page. I checked. FF was using 179 MB of memory, with three windows open, and a total of 11 tabs.

    Out of curiosity, I loaded the page in IE8. 176 MB of memory, with only that one page open. Google Chrome? 53 MB. Safari isn't installed on this virtual machine, I'll probably test it later.

    I'm not a mathematical genius, but the troll's claims don't seem to add up.

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  19. P.S. If you ever have any balls to drop, maybe you'll stop signing slashdot posts as "anonymous coward".

    If you don't like Firefox, just as Mozilla.org for a refund, you moron. They will happily give back all the money you spent on Firefox.

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  20. Safari uses webkit, which is C++.

    The language doesn't make the problems, the programmers do.

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  21. I had no problems viewing the page in Firefox 3.5. I don't think anyone knows what you are complaining about.

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  22. Firefox 3.5 / linux, 21mb used, no problems here ;)

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  23. I was using firefox 2 (.20) until last month. I never made the upgrade to ff3 for many reasons instead I chose to ditch firefox and go with opera. I've not regretted doing so either.

    I think it's neat how so many are fed up with the direction of firefox and are taking action. Hopefully ff will see this and get back to keeping it simple.

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  24. I've had to drop back down to Firefox 3.0.13. 3.5.2 would start at less than 100 mb memory and in no time would climb above 600 mb. Yeah, it's probably memory leaks from add-ons (ie tab, interclue, adblock plus, no script, etc.). But the leak is a lot slower in 3.0.

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  25. 1) Fx eats RAM like a fat kid eats candy, it's gone before you can blink.
    2) Guys, his username is "trollaxor" for a reason...
    3) Fx used to be good, but it's been getting bad for a while now. Chrome/Opera 10 are much better choices for now. Hopefully the Mozilla team will get back on top of things, but until then...
    4) See #2. Come on, people, seriously.

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  26. "400 MB?! I blame this on the Firefox team's use of C++, where memory management is about as easy as herding cats. Likewise Firefox is a slow, bloated nightmare. (For a contrast, there's Safari, which is written in Objective C and is very small and efficient.)"

    This is the most telling part of the article, where the author shows his complete ignorance.
    Safari was written in Obj-C, yes, but that means it is also manually managed memory (retain/release rather than new/delete), as it was written before Obj-C 2.0, which has the garbage collector.

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  27. Trollaxor is not entirely incorrect. I don't know much about computing, and am happy to use it for many cool things. However, I sometimes have to use FF version 2, which is way better and faster than the latest 3.5.whatever. The latest versions don't redirect properly, and I have to close it down and reopen it in order to continue on some sites (I'll mention that they're all Google/YouTube/Picasaweb/Gmail related, so far.) I don't know if the problem is with the servers and various timeout periods, cache probs, or whatever, but FF has sucked all sizes lately. I wish they'd fix it. I know it's free, but it seems incompetent.

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  28. My firekitty is using 35mb.

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  29. Get off that shitty OS you're using.

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  30. Why do I get the feeling that this a bunch of the people who developed firefox posted to this blog.

    Probabl because they love the false praise they get for a overgodamn bloated software.

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  31. What's really ridiculous is Firefox's definition of compatibility.

    In 1997, the HTML 4.0 specifications were published and Internet Explorer 6 was released 4 years later. Over the last 9 years, every single site I've designed has rendered consistently and as expected in Microsoft's browser.

    Then Firefox came along, preaching about efficiency and standards/interoperability. Lots of people know how much of a fraud it is in the efficiency department, but think about the following.

    Every single version of the browser breaks pages I use. Standards designed almost 15 years ago and Mozilla's implementation keeps changing. Some of their own pages, like the one for their new "personas" feature (AKA themes), won't render right in Firefox 2.

    As if that wasn't bad enough, that's what their zealots want to push on all of us who don't use their browser. They whine about Microsoft's upgrade treadmill and then push development techniques that obselete the browser every 6 months! Ever stop to think that the explosion in Flash dependence is related to how much you fucked up layouts advocating broken CSS over the table tag?

    Do you remember when the world wide web was supposed to be a platform agnostic exchange of content? How about when we declared those olld "best displayed in Netscape" logos to be stupid? So how the hell does that square with all the broken layouts and arrogant nag screens demanding visitors upgrade to the latest Firefox beta just to view your precious images and text?

    Firefox lock-in is even WORSE than IE lock-in.

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  32. Your example page uses 90MB in Firefox. Not 400.

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  33. Great review. Firefox is bloatware, and its disciples are purposely blind to it.

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  34. I personally have not had any of those issues but it does crash quite often.

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  35. FUCK FIREFOX5/30/10, 1:11 PM

    FUCK FIREFOX AND THEIR STUPID LITTLE FUCKING BROWSER. IF IT WORKED PROPERLY AND DIDNT CRASH EVERY TEN MINUTES I WOULD LIKE IT A LITTLE. BUT SINCE IT FUCKING CRASHES WHILE VIEWING FLASH CONTENT, FUCK FIREFOX IN ITS FUCKING ASS. FUCKER!!

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  36. Great Site !

    i'm using »midori« a fast small webkit-gtk browser coded by Christian Dywan.

    Unfortunately, too many people are still taken in by the clever Maketing the Mozilla Foundation!

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  37. F*ck firefox...my browser keeps closing/stalling because of adobe....

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  38. Fire Fox had their shit together back in '04, sadly not anymore. I just made the switch to Chrome and it kicks ass... way faster!! So dump fire fox if you're having issues and move on to alternative browsers.

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  39. type "FUCK FIREFOX" and arrive here..
    10 thumbs up bro

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  40. the only reason I am still using firefox is firebug. fuck firefox.

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  41. Fuck fuck fuck fuckety fox, slow ass firefox is just a disguise, what prays upon your table top is in fact a waterslug.

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  42. Fuck the grand old turtles hovering in the air, puffing heat yet freezing cold, ignorant computers, stuck dumb keys, glitches in the screen, work abrupted, flow obstructed, all stupidity proliferates itself in every blockage through which the fuck mind shows its roots. Fuck the turtles endless fuck, the waterslugging scripts popups, the bugs, the deaf commanders, blind form factors, myriad of languages forgotten and remade again, fuck the trouble and the money
    I can only imagine the peace of the fast

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  43. Yeah man FF sucks bad. I'm going back to IE. FF is slow to load and just slow, windows change for no reason, toolbars disappear, the thing is crap almost as bad as vista, what a dump that is. F them both. And customer support sucks for both too.

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  44. FUCK FIRFOX!!! BAND OF FAG SON OF BITCHES FUCK ALL FAG TEAM OF THIS FUCK CRAPPY FIREFOX.

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  45. Fuck firefox im sick of this its a memory hog ate 1gb of memory from my pc wtf,im using chrome now.

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  46. There are sites I have been logging into for years. Now suddenly, with each "upgrade", I can't login to most of them. Cleared cache, etc, blah blah. Spare me. I'm tech savvy and smarter than the average bear. Interestingly, Chrome is becoming the better browser. No problems with speed and logging in over there! Hmmm... perhaps Firefox is headed for its demise. Their forums are a joke! Who are the idiots over there answering the questions off of cue cards anyway? They never answer the actual question and give stock answers or treat the person asking the question like they're children. Shame on you Firefox.

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  47. Yeaaaa... firefox, you are dead to me. :(

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  48. Sadly, Firefox is the only program that works with the blogging software of the website I write for. Recently, I was typing up an article, and Firefox locked up, using about 1,000,000 KB of memory- and that's not including plugincontainer. Had to use Task Manager to end it. I had a few news sites and the blog itself open.

    Guess I'm switching to Chrome.

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  49. I notice most of the people commenting are pointing out that this is a troll post, yet they're engaging further in possibly being trolled. In all honesty though, Mozilla Firefox is browser garbage, troll page or not.

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  50. firefox kere ananı sikeyim seni icad edeninde amına koyayım annenizin amına eyfel kulesi girsin

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  51. You all suck. Opera is the best.

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  52. Fuck Firefox

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  53. I'm no geek but I wish I knew one; Firefox is a bitch! I do it the curtesy of updating and it gives another update in my absence, meaning I have to find my shit all over again! I don't think it's secure; advantageous; tuned in or willing to work with its user as much as they want to work with them selves. Hey,these are Microsoft/Firefox Wars. I concentrate on the real wars, but Firefox is so slow on the news!...

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  54. I left Firefox open downloading a file overnight and it took 2GB ram, i opened the task manager and said wtf. When i play Facebook games it takes 1gb or more of ram in Firefox 4, i tried using Firefox 5 it uses less memory like 500mb but crashes a lot so a big fuck to you Firefox. I prefer using my Chrome only take 30mb ram.

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  55. I was using both firefox and chrome. The only one that always gave me trouble was firefox. Firefox does not respond -> frozen page for a few minutes. Fuck that...

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  56. Chrome is the game changer, Firefox is horse shit.

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  57. FUCK FIREFOX IN THEIR FUCKING STUPID FUCKING ASSES!

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  58. Wow, great comments.

    Try Opera. The proof is in the pudding (or lack thereof, when you're just trying to navigate bloated sites).

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  59. Yeah FUCK Firefox
    its a really shit navigator
    SUCKIN Firefox
    DAMN Firefox !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    FUCK Firefox!!!!!!!!!!

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  60. I HATE firefox!

    Where'd my buttons go?
    Why can't I put facebook on my toolbar?
    I HATE Firefox!

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  61. fuck firefox

    It keeps updating even when I have the boxes unchecked.

    Who the hell do they think they are... Microsoft?
    I know what I want; I don't need them to think for me.

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  62. fucking fuck firefox in the ass hard

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  63. MOzilaa fucker1/14/12, 7:19 PM

    motherfucking browser uggghh just lost all my important music download pages from where i had planned to later grab mp3s and i don't even remember now the name of the sight not talking about that i'll have to go through them all pages if i tend to rememeber to open each desired page to download// fuck you mozilla die in helll..... crash n burn bitchesazzzz... ie is way betterr. although sux tooo...

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  64. R van der vaart2/19/12, 7:18 PM

    I have used firefox (mozilla) since internet became popular. Now I updated the last version for power pc (my imac 1.8 ghz is enough for what I need)
    A lot of important sites for me are slow or can not be reached. I threw away firefox as a program and can not reinstall it. SO FIREFOX SUCKS! No good answers are given for my problem, so if I cannot use firefox anymore I say, SCREW U!!!!

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  65. yeah I just updated this fucking web browser today, and now it wants to fucking update again - WTF????

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  66. Yeah, and the bloody nagscreen since today, telling me to update or take the risk!!!! WITH EACH AND EVERY F..in start of F....fox!

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  67. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU firefox!!!!!!!

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  68. 1.) Firefox freezes and crashes more than IE8, FACT. But these fanboys just can't accept that their beloved FF has turned into slow, buggy bloatware P.O.S.

    2.) Mozilla receives MEGA MILLIONS from Google in search royalties. But what happens to that in 2014 when the contract expires? They will be without their annually $300 million corporate welfare cheek.

    3.) prominent hackers say that firefox is the least secure browser, along with safari:
    http://www.neowin.net/news/cha...safest-computing-experience

    silly fanboy fag's.

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  69. Mozilla Firefox (Not Responding)
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    Fucking dismal.

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  70. Fu(k fu(king firefox, 14 is a total shit, it freezes all the time

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  71. Firefox is a piece of shit. Fuck you, Mozilla, and fuck your retarded quick release schedule.

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  72. Firefox has long abandoned its loyalties to the open source mentality.

    This has translated into Firefox becoming a horrible, laggy, freezing, horrible, piece of dogshit.

    Its only special talent is freezing. Then it doesn't respond to your actions to close.

    This is true on Windows 7 Professional 64-bit, and every flavor of Linux that I run.

    Time was when Firefox was a legitimate alternative to Internet Explorer. It opened a door for people dissatisfied with Internet Explorer and were happy to find a stable, fast, and secure alternative.

    No longer.

    In closing, FUCK FIREFOX.

    P.S. FUCK FIREFOX

    P.P.S. FUCK FIREFOX


    Sincerely,

    Nicholas Clark Colby, Director of Programming

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  73. firefox = piece of shit

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    Sure wish my employer didn't force me to use this piece of shit.

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  75. FUCK FIREFOX AND THE FUCKING ASSHOLES WHO CONTINUE TO TRY AND FIX AND UPDATE IT!!! GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU FUCKING MORONS!!!

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  76. NCSA Mosic rules!

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  77. Fuck Firefox ! I use it on Ubuntu 12.04 and it runs so slow trying to synchronize some shitty bookmarks that I to FUCK IT! FUCK YOU Firefox or XMarks, or both !!

    My name is Mikey Valentino, I live in Bucharest and I want to FUCK Firefox !!

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  78. This is something personal, your shitty ideas have ruined my webrowser
    You can put the plugin-container in your ass horny bitch

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  79. I used firefox for over a decade but with comments like this from Mozilla support about a crappy change to their browser
    "Uh... No. These "average guys", who account for the vast majority of the user base, will either

    1. Not care either way
    2. Learn to live with it "

    they can fuck off. uninstalled, never recommended again.

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  80. you try sucking dick for money for the past 18 years then you can tell me how you really feel about firefox 3.5 you bish

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  81. FUCKING AUTOMATIC UPDATES.
    After that all plug-ins installed is out of order.
    STUPIDITY IS THE WAY OF FIREFOX DEVELOPMENT.

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